Fighting Between Denominations is Stupid Part V - An Example Story

 So in my first four posts I presented a generalized rant about why attacking people for their denomination is dumb, but what does this look like in actual practice?

Well, here's a story that just happened a few weeks ago.  

I run a Minecraft server for my family.  Occasionally I explore other Minecraft servers that I get invited to join so I can see what other people are doing and get ideas.  Well, I was invited to join a Christian-themed server and all was well at first.  Things seemed pretty quiet, and when I noticed that there were a lot of religious-themed buildings on that server I asked if it would be possible to import a schematic that I had created some years ago when my oldest son and I built the Washington D.C. LDS Temple in our Minecraft world.  They did so, and I really thought I'd found some folks who were going to be easy to get along with.

That is, until the day the owner of the server (a Catholic) was showing me around his elaborate temple to Ra(!).  I was looking around as we chatted about things until, out of nowhere, he says to me:

"I don't mean to be rude, but I really think Joseph Smith had a demon possessing him."

It really never ceases to blow my mind how people will just drop casual statements like that thinking it could possibly land in any way that wasn't rude.  Just by the way, kids...  Starting a statement with a phrase like "I don't mean to be rude" does not make the rest of the sentence nice.  If you don't want to be rude, don't be rude.  It really is that simple.

So anyway, I get treated next to a bunch of "gotcha" questions from this person trying to somehow expose some deep, dark hidden LDS secret that I have somehow been unaware of my entire 25 years of being LDS that this person has, in his genius, figured out.

So I try to be pretty laid back about this stuff in general, and I really don't want to get into theological arguments with people, so I let that slide.

A couple of days later, on the Discord server attached to this Minecraft world, I start getting it from another Catholic member of that group.  I had posted a general message about how I wasn't interested in arguing over Christian theology or playing "my Christianity is better than yours" with a bunch of anonymous Internet strangers.  I pointed out that I'd much rather either focus on the things we share in common, or just not discuss it at all.  Well, I thought it was a pretty nice, conciliatory statement until this new guy reacts to that by posting some YouTube video smearing Joseph Smith.  

So... yeah.  How nice.  Obviously I didn't watch that nonsense and blocked this individual.  He went on to start bashing somebody else at that point.

Not long after, the server owner DMs me with, you guessed it, more anti-Joseph Smith material, along with a note saying something like "I really think you should watch this so you can know the truth."

At that point, I can see that I was just going to get harassed by these people whenever I was on the server so I left.  I also sent the owner a note letting him know why.  He claimed, of course, that he was just concerned about my soul.  Nonsense.  As I said in a previous post, I don't believe that motive for a second.  Care about my soul?  No, fella, you don't.  What you care about is making yourself feel more secure in your beliefs by bashing someone else's.  What you care about is being able to act nasty toward someone online because you're protected by Internet anonymity.  What you care about is the hope that you can convert me for the sake of your bragging rights.

Let me pause here to say this:  I've heard the Joseph Smith attacks.  I've heard all the criticisms, complaints, accusations, allegations and so on.  I've done my research using resources from both in and out of the LDS Church and I've reconciled things to my satisfaction.  I'm not someone who pretends not to hear difficult things.  Joseph Smith wasn't a perfect man but the vast majority of the stuff said about him in an attempt to smear him is either wildly distorted or outright dishonest.  I mean, isn't that to be expected?  Of course people who are suspicious of the LDS Church are going to believe, without question, any negative material about its founding member.  Then they get all mad and offended when I don't buy it like they did.

So anyway, this fellow starts trying to teach me Catholicism, even though he knew I had been Catholic before.  It seems he believes that the only reason I left the Catholic Church was because I didn't understand it properly.  (Mind you, he has not asked me WHY I left Catholicism.  I find that very telling.)  He also accuses me of being weak because I won't watch the anti-Joseph Smith video.  

Here's the exact line from the Discord conversation:

"I send u materials that 100% disprove ur religion and ur too weak to listen"

(When I later call him on being rude again, he again denies being rude.)

He later said this:

"I am respectful i respectfully say that Joseph Smith is a heretic burning under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ

all due respect"

Ah yes, perfectly respectful if you just add a "with all dues respect" at the end.  Perfectly reasonable.  Here's what I was raised on:

Thumper's Wisdom

I decide to try to turn this into a positive discussion, so I offer an agreement:  I will read or watch any one source of information about Catholic doctrine that he feels I need to know if in return he will read or watch one source of information about LDS that I provide.  He agrees.

...and immediately sends me three links to YouTube videos about Joseph Smith.  

That isn't what we agreed to, and I pointed it out.  So now I know I'm dealing with someone who won't act in good faith.  I offer him one last chance to uphold our agreement.  He sends me a video.  A three-hour episode of Pints with Aquinas where they interview an ex-Mormon.

See, this is why I think so little of people who attack each others' faith.  They do so dishonestly.  They lie about their motives and they are very poor representatives of the Gospel with that kind of behavior.  That right there gives me all the assurance I need that I'm on the right side of the argument.

Well, seeing that this person is very stubborn I decide to try and turn this into a positive.  So, I watched the important parts of the video.  I see that this ex-Mormon, while seemingly well-versed in Church policy and procedures, has catastrophically failed to understand the point of LDS doctrine.  (Faith, in case you're wondering.)  From listening to his story, you can tell he just wasn't really enthusiastic about Church and was certainly looking for reasons to leave.

Why do I say this?  Because at one point he claimed that the Book of Mormon said certain things about polygamy, in connection with David and Solomon.  He couldn't recall where it was in the book, but said it was somewhere near the beginning.  Curious to see what he was talking about, I pulled out my Quad, checked the Topical guide, and searched for the discussion of the subject in the Book of Mormon.  Guess what I found?  This reference he was talking about doesn't exist.  It isn't in the Book of Mormon.  At all.  

So was he lying?  

I have a feeling he wasn't lying, but that he'd gotten that nonsense from some anti-LDS literature somewhere and, willing to believe anything that justified his wanting to leave the church, never bothered to look it up and see if it was even true.  So he was being intellectually dishonest even if he wasn't consciously lying per se.

The video I sent my discussion partner was a two-minute video where President Hinckley talked about being respectful of other faiths.  The guy took two days to bother watching it.  

So, seeing that I wasn't dealing with a person who would act in good faith, I discontinued the discussion after pointing out why the video he'd sent was... unconvincing.  I also blocked him because frankly, I was tired of indulging this guy.  

So, what are the points this little interaction illustrates?

Well, for starters, neither of the two individuals I mentioned in this post has done very much to improve the image of the Catholic Church in my eyes.  It's not that I'm judging all Catholics by the antics of these two, but at the same time they haven't exactly given me reason to consider going back.

Further, this illustrates the way people will behave in a disingenuous way to try to argue someone down.  People agree to one thing and then pull a bait and switch, and this is to get me to believe that they're the ones representing the Gospel of Jesus Christ? 

Also, this dude must really have weak faith in his own views if he believes that a video is powerful enough to shake someone out of their religion.  I mean, did this guy really think I was going to watch the anti-Joseph Smith video and then write him back, saying something like this?

Hey!  So I watched that video telling all about the REAL Joseph Smith and wow!  What an eye-opener!  Gee whiz guy, you really saved my spiritual bacon with that one!  I'm gonna walk away from Mormonism forever and I'm gonna do it right now!  Moreover, I'm gonna contact my local Catholic Church and ask to be re-baptized because I've seen the light!  All because of you, my brother, my hero.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you!

I mean, maybe that's what he was daydreaming about.

The part that rankles me is that because I don't retaliate, I fear that I leave people like this with the impression that it's because I can't.  That I have no valid criticisms of their side or that I don't know anything about it.  That's nonsense.  As I've said, I left Catholicism for reasons, and I have never looked back.  I have no reason to go attacking Catholics though, because each person is on his or her own journey and it isn't my place to go meddling in them by trying to force my views on them.  This guy accused me of being ignorant.  I know things that could very well shatter the faith of someone like that, but I won't do it.

I won't do it because, as previously stated, it's a pretty vile and evil thing to do to try and ruin someone else's faith just for your own selfish reasons.  This guy assumed that if he could just break my association with the LDS Church I'd come back to Catholicism.  I wouldn't.  I even pointed out that he was making that assumption.  He denied it.  Ok well either he was lying again or he really just had an axe to grind against LDS so much that he didn't care what I did as long as the Church lost another member.  

The truth is, if this guy succeeded in talking me away from LDS then I'd be an atheist.  I'm not going into why that is right now, but it is true.  

Next: The excuses people use for bad behavior.